Im not sure of the number of girls I have gone out, so I am not sure how many of those were too frum for me or at my level or below, but I have enough to base a statistic off of it. I am talking about when a shidduch is brought up by a friend of a family or a friend of mine and the girl (or her parents) demands references. I can maybe somewhat understand if it was an actual shadchan making the shidduch to demand reference, due to the fact that the shadchan doesn’t know either party that well so use this is an extra insurance. Although, I think that is too frummie for me too. But I am more annoyed when someone when some one I know matches it up and the girl wants references. If the family or person knows them and me (and/or my family), then it’s as if you don’t trust them.
Also, my personal stats show that when someone like this wants refs, the girl is always more religious than me. Its obviously more this is normal for the frum crowd to constantly demand 5 phone numbers of neighbors, friends, and rabbis, and the pre-1A Morah, but it is less common with the more modern girls and who I went out with that were more my ‘speed’. Not the mention the other obvious defense that is always mentioned that “its only a few hours and some drinks, what do you got to loose”.
Maybe this is just me, but I am more interested in the more laid back, modern girls who trust friends rather than those other super overly cautious frummer gals who don’t trust anyone as they are scared of wasting their precious time with some random guy for 3 hours.
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This is my thought on references:
One reference from a rabbi would do, but normally I don't ask for references for a shidduch. If they want references I have some.
Basically you can't find out much through references anyways. His rabbi might see him pretty frequently but he does not spend a lot of time with the guy. So his reference is subjective. I went out with men who had "excellent references" but they were up to things that none of their references knew about. I think one can figure out more about a person if they meet the person and spend some time with them.
I also had some erratic experiences with nasty references, instead of giving me info, they were trying to get information about me and getting too nosy about the whole shidduch process.
I couldn't agree more! I can't understand why people can't make judgments on their own. I think the parents are more concerned about who their children are dating, but what they don't realize is that philosophy is stunting their child's growth in a controlling manner.
I believe when a girl asks for references before a first date it really shows that she's immature and clueless to life and relationships.
Ordinarily I would agree, just go out . Its a date for crying out loud not a highly covert operation for the CIA, but in this case, there is good reason for all the reference..
Better the girl get a 100 references than get stuck with a terd like you...
i dont think references are such a bad idea..eventhough im not sure how much you can expect to find out..
but what makes no sense to me is getting references before you even meet. first meet.. see if theres potential, see if theres chemistry, and then get a couple of refences to make sure nothing major comes out.. if it doesnt, at lease you know you did your part and the rest is in His hands.
References from a Rabbi???!!! What the fuck??? What is the Rabbi supposed to say?
Is it something like: "Yep, this girl is great. I tried her in various positions and she performed wonderfully, but her particular strength is in making love on the table. You should definitely go out with her, she is kosher".
if you've met through a friend or someone you trust, i don't think references are necessary right off. all the references in the world or not at all aren't going to make a difference if personalities don't click.
however, if it's someone from online to date or through someone you don't know so well, i think it's a good idea, mainly for peace of mind.
well lance their not interested in growth, they wanna be sheltered- foreva.
I think the references thing is a bit silly to begin with especially if it's done informally.
Tell me if this is bizzarre. A girl (or mother) didnt ask me for any references when the match was being made (which i was happy with) but some how knew some one i know and asked them for 2 other names and numbers of people i know. This got me a bit upset. Not only did they not trust the person matching it up, but they also did not trust the person who gave her 2 more numbers. I think references are crazy but to go behind one's back and get references from someone else is ludacris.
personally when i have asked references i certainly didnt come up with a plan of who to ask and how to ask.. it was more a spur of the moment, first person who came to mind, or first person i bumped into ..
for all i know maybe i offended someone or insulted someone by checknig for references in an offensive way..
or maybe i just ddint put that much thougth into it..
and maybe youre reading too much into it? :)
Notsofrummie that's not cool. It IS bizarre.
oh grow up -would you just give your money to any one to invest? no. you would ask your parents, a wealthy freind or someone knowledgable for the name of a trusted stock broker, financial adviser or the like. Why should dating for marriage be any different. Granted many of the questions people ask are totally worthless, but I know the questions I ask arent even so much as finding out the answers bu to seee from the way people answer my questions if the girl is a regular normal person or someone who has many issues [and by issues I mean screwed up in the head]. I just want to get a feel that the family isnt crazy and weird. In fact having some references, generally assauges me that the person and family are at least considered normal. Once I get some general background info, the date itself will reveal the rest. Point is, as we date primarily for marriage, and courtships arent so lenghty, it is actually irrational not to ask for references. So stop whining and suck it up and good luck.
I know that there is nothing i can say in this post that will make you go "crap i am totally wrong about this whole references thing."
having said that, don't you dare let this ruin your date with this girl because its not fair to her or to you.
I dont know you but if you want to get married then just try to work with people, ok.
Now that i have spewed crap about other crap that i have no idea about, why the hell are you so pissed anyway?
I think that notsofrummie should just go out, even if he already has negative preconceptions. Maybe he'll like Ms. Date and be willing to look past her parents' inquisitive tendencies....oh and all farting activity was my doing.
Hey anonymous's - you bring up examples of stock advisors and people you should trust with your money is the same as going out on a date. Perhaps you have too much free time and no common sense. Maybe for marriage you can do background check and research but for a few hour date where there is a large possiblity it is not going anywhere is a total waste. After a few dates and things start heating up, ok. All i am sayin, from my experiences, the girls who do this never go past 1 date because the type of girl that allows her mom to do this is not the type of girl i am interested in.
And for the person that called me a turd, i feel bad for the guy your going to end up with having every single friend of yours being harassed even before you guys even met by your mom. Its almost as if you have something to hide, being so worried that the guy is hiding something.
Someone asks me for references and right away I have exactly what you said in my mind. Either they live at home- which automatically raises flags anyway and their parents are doing the shidduch- or they are too relig and uptight for me.
I am definitely not one who is for the references thing in general. you should base ur opinion on meeting him/her and not on what his Rabbi/etc said. i have heard many instances of friends who went out with complete jerks who were menschs in everyone's eyes.
Also even if NSF wants to get married he shouldnt suck it up and date this person. Yes she might be great-but they already seem like theyre not of the same mindset... references have become standard procedure so much that people ask bc theyre supposed to ask, you dont need that...
NFNY Girl - its interesintg that you mention its become some kinda automatic procedure. The friend of the family was pushing my mom the refs and sayin "this is the way you do things" even we already refused. wtf does that suppose to mean. what makes this the way things are done. i chose the way i wanna date - not them!
Look, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Different people have different levels of openness. The important thing is whether or not you are interested in the woman. If you are, then references shouldn't be a problem...unless you have something to hide.
Whether you do things the old fashioned way or the more modern way, every woman is going to want to know your history eventually. So just take it easy.
Consider that perhaps people with confidence don't want to waste their time...even a short time on people who they know aren't going to be worth it. So you might want someone more laid back...but why?
Is it really about trust, or is it more that you don't like the idea of possibly being judged by *someone else* (whose opinion shouldn't matter as much as your own) as unworthy.
Personally, I'd rather know if someone was overly critical from the beginning. The fact of asking for references before dating or committing wouldn't bother me. The problem is when people set themselves above others based on trivialities.
Consider that perhaps people with confidence don't want to waste their time...
Correction. People who don't have enough brain cells to absorb the facts on their own and decide for themselves feel the need to ask for references. Do you know how many men I met who had "great references" but were in fact pigs in reality? One example, one guy was one of the most loved guys in a yeshiva, his rosh yeshiva, his chavrusas gave him a ten star reference. According to them, he was one of a kind.
I later found out that he was addicted to crack&cocaine and he was banging some leftist atheist G-d hating girl in Israel and was mostly influenced by her cause she was his pusher (pusher=drug dealer). Now that's very impressive.
I can go on and give you more sick examples of guys with "perfect references" who had nothing to hide but actually did.
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